In Conversation: Manish Gaekwad Talks to Jogathi Manjamma

In conversation with Manish Gaekwad, Padma Shri B. Jogathi Manjamma talks about how her art of ‘jogathi nritya’ helped her survive the trials and tribulations of growing up as a transgender woman in Karnataka.

Read the conversation below:

Q. What was your first meeting with Jogathi Manjamma like? Could you also tell us a bit about the genesis of the book and what the process of its making meant for you?

Harsha Bhat: I met her in Delhi at the Ashoka Hotel for a story when she was there to collect her Padma award. In the course of interaction, she shared that ‘It is my art that has brought me here and not activism,’. Through trials and triumph, through insult and awards, through ridicule and reward, through all that had made her who she was today as she sat as the recipient of one of our country’s highest civilian awards. The Jogati Nritya is what first gave her a means to live, to earn and to find a place for herself in this world amidst all the rejection and ridicule and then went on to be the one that won her accolades, respect and recognition.

In reciprocation, she also took the art form beyond its boundaries of the community and street performances, helping it gain wider acceptance and platforms as well as students and the President’s award.

Literally a journey from the pavement to the President’s court—of both the art form and the artist. This got me intrigued and I told her I would like to pen her tale, in English, as there were many other works in regional languages. She agreed and here we are.

The process has been transformational and one that helped me enhance my thinking as I delved deeper into the lives of those hitherto unknown to me and most like me. It was a conversation of culture, creativity and compassion. The only strong desire was to tell this tale of the pursuit of art in the direst circumstances and surviving it all to tell the tale as well as the beauty of the cultural fabric of India.

Q. From social ostracization to personal challenges, the memoir delves into many traumatic experiences. What were some of the challenges that you faced while translating these testaments?

Harsha Bhat: I have in author Jayant Kaikini’s words ‘transcreated’ her thoughts—so that nothing is lost in translation. Except for say, some cultural vocabulary that we categorize as non-translatables—my cultural understanding and my linguistic proficiency helped achieve this without much struggle. For I sat at hours often asking her questions layered to reveal much more than the anecdotal tales she had been sharing in her interactions with media etc. I would spend days watching her, observing her interactions with her team at the academy or back in her house with fellow jogatis. It is involving myself without judgements or inhibitions that let me be a blank slate and pen this one. For me, she was a strong story I had to take her tale to the world so she could inspire the likes of her and others too to be life oriented.

Q. Being conferred the Padma Shri in 2021 was a milestone in Manjamma’s stellar life as an artiste par excellence—which not only brought her to national fame but also was a recognition of her life as a transgender folk artiste who had to fight against massive odds. What was Manjamma’s first reaction to the announcement? What did it mean for her and the community of artistes and transgender women/people?

Manjamma (as translated by Bhat): The Padma award initiated a world of change as it brought a community of transgenders, the art form called Jogati Nritya and its contribution to our folk culture as well as the lives we live—all of which have not been a part of mainstream discussion eve—into limelight. On one hand, it also gave both my trans community as well as folk artists a ray of hope—that someday they too can find recognition and reward. That they too can find honour and respect in the days to come. The Padma award is a huge step in extending support to both as it has had a ripple effect which even if slowly will surely have an impact.

Q. Manjamma has credited Jogathi Nritya as a “magic wand” and a “magic spell” that took her from the “pavement to the Padma Shri.” She has also discussed how it was her art that took her to heights, more than her activism. What are her thoughts on the dialogue between art and activism? What is the responsibility of the artist to drive change in a society?

Manjamma: I was once, homeless and orphaned, just for being true to myself. And today, the same truth has made me a mother to countless sons and daughters who call me Amma and embrace me as their own. If I were born a man, I couldn’t have fathered that many, nor could I have given birth to so many ever had I been a woman. But my art has ensured I have the privilege and comfort of being ‘Amma’ to countless children across the globe.

My art has accomplished what no other means could. My activism has also been through my pursuit of art and I see it has already begun to bear fruits. People now share that they do not roll up windows when they spot transgenders at traffic signals, instead roll it down and offer them something. My own community says my journey reaching people has changed their perception of us. It has also inspired many young transwomen to take to respectable means of earning and living. Art, though for me began as a means of survival, I have seen is a powerful tool and can be a catalyst for change.

Q. The memoir details the many financial and institutional challenges that Manjamma had to conquer. From her poverty to her emotional and social deprivation, she goes at length to describe her misfortunes. How do you think structures of power curtail artistic freedoms—especially for artists that belong to the ‘marginal’ communities? What do you think the government and other institutions can do to make art a more equal space of artistic freedom and expression?

Manjamma: Financial challenges are a given but those can be addressed by systemic support. Both the centre and state should provide financial assistance that is not tokenistic: award-winning folk artists should be provided some pension of sorts by respective state governments. Financial aid should be provided to artists whose art will else be relegated to history. Every taluk should have government Ranga Mandiras where folk artists or the non-mainstream artists who else find it difficult to even bear their cost of putting up a stage for a performance have an option of performing at minimum expense.

Country’s highest civilian award winners in other states, I have recently read, do receive monthly pension of sorts. I would want that our state government too initiated the same, especially for those who get an award for areas like social service, art and the like.

Q. Manjamma also describes in detail how her own family abandoned and ostracized her. This is a common reality for queer people, wherein their own families deny them their truth. Could you please share some of Manjamma’s experiences on this? And how has her own art provided that safe space and community to her?

Manjamma: Once I found the refuge of tradition, outsiders respected me. It was my family that couldn’t bear the pain of losing their son to this transformation. I have spoken about it in detail in the book and have at every forum also requested that no parent should disown such children. My only plea is that they be educated and enabled to stand on their own two feet, which will spare them all other difficulties in life.

Q. The memoir also uncovers the intersection of how caste and gender politics colluded to doubly ostracize Manjamma. She talks about how belonging to the Aryavaishya community, being possessed by Yellamma was seen as a disgrace by her family. Please tell us a bit more about this collusion—especially in Manjamma’s life.

Manjamma: Be it caste or gender—Jogati tradition enabled me to live without the shackles of both. I never lived confirming to any of these once I got initiated and which is why it was liberating in many ways. Our identity is that of a Jogati and it subsumed all others in an empowering manner.

Q. What would be your message to other trans people and artists?

Manjamma: My message to other trans people is that they find a path of pursuit and equip themselves, skill themselves so that they lead a life of honour and equality. And times have changed and are changing—the process has begun but we also need to ensure we rise to the occasion and chose a vocation and its pursuit, and we will part of society like any other. For artists too I ask that they pursue it selflessly; for art will take you places if you give yourself to it.

Q. Why should people read From Manjunath to Manjamma?

Manjamma: The book is a wonderful effort as it will take my tale to the whole world without any language barriers. It is taking not Manjamma’s story but the world of Jogathis, our culture, our art form and all that it encompasses to the world. My earlier life stories in Kannada and Telugu may have reached people who are acquainted with the culture, but this work will reach audiences who have never known about our world or existence. And I seek that people across the globe read this unique tale of hope and perseverance fielded by art, backed by tradition, and now has the honour of a country’s fourth highest civilian award.